Chris Mailander:
Today we go inside the huddle. I want to understand how a leader develops their team from the inside out. I want to understand where the line is between who wins and who loses. I want to understand how mental architecture affects physical outcomes. This is Chris Mailander.

This story begins 38 years ago in the spring of 1986. And I was standing on the side of a basketball court in a small farm town gym. The town has about 600 people. It's consolidated with another town just to the north of it that has about 300 people. And I was coaching middle school girls basketball, which is interesting because I wrestled since second grade and played a decent amount of football and ran a little bit of track, but never played basketball.

But that's how things work in Iowa, which is that my sister was on the team, a middle school girls team that was playing travel basketball in the spring. And out there it's brothers help sisters and sons and daughters, and we treat them all the same. And we expect them to be athletes, regardless of boys or girls. You're going to be physical. You're going to be aggressive. You're going to be able to talk trash. You're going to sweat. You're going to earn it. You're going to go through wins and losses. And there's a standard to be set. You're going to be part of a team and understand how all that works. And so that was what the experience was about.

And so we were playing basketball and it was a good game, a fairly close game. And I remember that we had one particularly nice jump shot right towards the end and a timeout, etc. And I was coaching against a couple of girls that were from that hometown who were good athletes in their own regard.

And there was some talk that was going on, some banter between the coaches as part of that game. But this is where I'm going to take a measure of credit, because that credit is called the butterfly effect. And the butterfly effect is that the single flutter of a butterfly can set in motion a series of events that lead to really big things. Really big causal relationships between that single event.

We ended up losing that game by a couple of points. And I'm not sure the clock management was quite right or the refereeing was all fair because we were on foreign territory. But that person who I was coaching against ended up becoming, a year later, the leading scorer in the nation for girls basketball at 66 points per game. And then four years later was the leading scorer in the nation as a collegiate basketball player at 29.6 points per game.

Went on to play professional basketball in Germany, came back home and started her coaching career at Drake University with Lisa Bluder. And then they as a team moved on to the Iowa women's basketball program where they have been coaching since then. In May she became the head coach of the Iowa women's basketball program, which has become one of the elite programs in the United States. Welcome Jan Jensen.

Jan Jensen:
Thank you. That was a fun little blast from the past, a walk down memory lane. I remember that game vaguely, but I think the clock management was spot on. I think the team that was victorious was the home team.

It was about like playing the Kansas City Chiefs. There's always a little bit of an edge there, you know. The refs were helping. Anyway, it's wonderful to spend some time with you and congratulations on all of the achievements and taking over the program at Iowa, which the state is extraordinarily proud of. And it's a big job and we're excited about it.

A couple of thoughts immediately, which is first of all, it was one of the most seamless transitions in college athletics and professional athletics and in the business world. It was a really seamless transition, which I'm sure takes a tremendous amount of orchestration and thought and diligence and care.

Yeah, I think that's the key. When it looks seamless, that's what you're trying to do. But it doesn't happen without a whole lot of work. You burn the midnight oil, right. A lot of extra time. And I think probably just being extra thoughtful.

When you come into a situation when you're brand new, which we've done before, 25 years ago to be exact, Lisa Bluder, myself, Jenny Fitzgerald, we left Drake and came over here and everything was new, right. So there's an understanding that everything's new. So you can kind of play off of that. You're new. You don't really know where the library is to even direct your players to go to the library because you don't know either. So there is an expectancy of a little upheaval. A little bit that everything is going to be kind of a whirlwind, but we're expected and we're all learning together.

But when I was given this amazing opportunity, that's not the tone you wanted to set. Because there's going to be change and there's going to be definitely enough of that in the areas where Lisa has done such a beautiful job for so many years. So everything else that we could control, we could be measured in, we could have normalcy, that's where the staff that I retained, as well as the two new people we added, we really spent a lot of time just business as usual. And just making sure that they saw our comfortability.

The current players I think were key. Because with the portal now, if you follow sports, they easily could have jumped in that portal, especially a couple of our key players. They needed to know that it was going to be fine.

And so that's where I kind of started with the baseline of everybody that had stayed or was returning, making sure that they always felt comfortable and it was easy. And then the things that were different, you know, I'm leading a huddle. You know, the spring practices. Or we're walking in and they're not seeing Lisa. So they know that's going to be weird. But I had to also act like I identified it, but it wasn't weird, because this is what we had worked for.

The only thing that was the surprise was the timing. Lisa and I talked about that for five or six years, if and when that time came, but I was never pining for this office. It would be great, but it was never like, when am I going to get that corner office. So a lot of things helped make it seamless. But I think that's why it did happen and appear so, because we did work on it. Everything we could really measure and control that could be seamless, we really focused on that. And then everything that was new, we just tried to minimize that.

Chris Mailander:
Yeah. And you retained all the players.

Jan Jensen:
We did. Everybody stayed. And so did our commitments, which is just as equally key. I think that was one of my most relieving moments, is when we called everybody. And that was probably the most hectic one in our world.

When Lisa announced her retirement, we have an incredible leader. Beth Goetz is our AD. And she really formulated the whole plan. And she had it down like a timing sheet for a game. When that national anthem is going to play. Introductions. All the things. And she just laid it out. She said okay. We're going to announce her retirement. We're going to wait 15 minutes to let everybody kind of absorb and let her have a moment. And then at 15 minutes we're going to drop it. Because if we don't drop it I'm really worried about the portal. And that's going to give you and Lisa time to formulate your game plan.

So then Lisa and I worked phones. We were in her office at the time, not mine. She was on one side of it, I was on the other. And we would start a call and then we'd throw each other the phones. So it was to a returning player, and I was with another returning player and we'd flip it. And then to our recruits. And we just went through the rising seniors, the rising juniors, the rising sophomores, the rising freshmen. And then about the end of the hour she was pretty spent. I was too, but I had a lot more ground to cover.

So that was a pretty powerful day. And they all said yes. The ones that had committed. And then everybody has held so far. And on the right side, the top of the nation's other ones, it's been seamless. Now whether we win, I mean whether we get them or we don't, I don't think it will be because of the transition.

Chris Mailander:
Yeah, brilliant game plan associated with that. Has there been an inflection in your mindset in terms of you've been a long time assistant, a long time with Lisa, and now it's your team. Does it shift? Is there a way of thinking about it in a different way?

Jan Jensen:
I think the best way I have said it is, I think anybody who has been their own boss or when you're running something, is you have typically a really good right hand and a left hand. And Lisa, I think she'll tell you, she felt really good about myself and Jenny Fitzgerald.

So as long as Lisa and Jen and I had worked together, that was 32 years. Lisa and I would have been together that long. So there was a lot of shared responsibility. We would talk about a big issue and we were all throwing in our opinions. But at the end of the day I understood that the good and the not so good rested with Lisa's chair.

So shifting over, no matter how close I could be and I'd like to think helpful in all of those decisions and shaping it, you do feel that ultimate, ultra sense of responsibility. Because it all ends here now and I get that.

And I think when you hire people, I hired a tremendous head coach, Division Two. She chose to come back. She played for us. I attracted another gentleman who was an assistant at North Carolina. You feel responsible. They are coming in. So you want to make sure their experience is good, let alone all the young women that stuck with you and their families.

So I think that is the biggest difference. I have always felt that, but now I'm not sharing that with 32 years of experience. And I think that's the thing. The biggest difference is I don't know if we will see that again in college athletics, a group of people sticking together that long. I think the reason you won't see that is because the landscape has changed, and I'm sure we will get into that.

With the portal, the collectives, NILs, and now we're going to get into this revenue sharing, the stakes are high because there's now so much money. They have kind of forced colleges into being pro teams. And when you're a pro team, you can lose a little bit of what I think, you know, if you ask most people, they kind of tend to lean toward college sports in some ways because of just the, you know, do it for the university. These kids aren't all going to go on and play pros.

There's, I don't like it more than the pros, NBA, NFL, but there's a certain sentimentality for collegiate sports. Maybe not big time football anymore, but everything else. But now with all the money, I think there's going to be a lot more pressure on jobs. And I think you're going to see fewer people able to last 35 years.

Chris Mailander:
And some of the language that you hear with college athletes as well now, in terms of that shift in how college athletics works, is talking about the product and talking about the brand. And they are very business oriented terms for understanding it. And the Iowa brand, the Iowa women's basketball brand, has been a really strong culture of girls that come in and stay, and a coaching staff that is consistent for 25 years. You have these legacy environments. Is it an asset for you? Is it something to lean into? Or will you have to adjust and adapt and be more transitional, like a lot of other programs that chase players and money and coaches?

Jan Jensen:
That's a great point, Chris. I think right now my goal, which I share with my AD and with a lot of families we meet with, is my ultimate goal is I want to remain a college team. That's what I'm going to try to do.

What we have done over the course of our career, and I think why people especially enjoyed our last couple of year run to the Final Four and the championship games, is that we had a starting unit that two years ago, the five of them had started together for three out of four years. And Caitlin was the new one. And she started every year, but the couple of them didn't get to start until Caitlin was a freshman.

Last year we had a core four. And so your fan base could really get to know them. They had seen them as a freshman and seen them grow.

The portal started three or four years ago, the transfer. So there was that national conversation where people were getting good pretty fast. And if it worked, you liked the dude. But if it did not work, you were like, I don't know that guy. How much are we paying that quarterback. So there was this uneasy tension.

I think with that, the starting lineup that our fan base really knew, there was a little interest, a higher interest. People who were following were like, wow, that's pretty cool. They stay together. But really, that is what we have done all along. I think people like our culture. I think everyone that plays here feels like they are valued and they matter.

And that's what I want to try to do even though now with the revenue sharing model, and if the listeners aren't familiar with the NCAA, it's the House settlement and all the years that the NCAA did not allow athletes to even sell a t-shirt. Now we are going in hard and heavy. It opened a whole Pandora's box.

So now it's a revenue sharing model. They are going to come up with some type of salary cap per university. And then the university ADs get to decide how much is going to go toward football, which will be a lot because the power conferences and football, they are the ones that drive it with all the TV deals. Then men's or women's basketball, depending. But you are going to have a certain amount that you can actually, like a salary if you will, pay people.

So now you can decide. It isn't just that scholarship that it used to be. Everybody got 15 full rides. When you are managing that, everybody got a full ride. Now you're managing that someone's a superstar. You're managing someone's a superstar and they are making hundreds of thousands of dollars more than you. So that's what we did not sign up for.

I am hopeful to keep it a college team, let people take advantage of revenue sharing, but try to keep the model here that it's still team, and it's not quite like Steph Curry is going to make 40 million and the guy on the bench is going to drop by 39,500,000.

Chris Mailander:
Very interesting perspective. It's a difficult wrestling match with the changes in how college athletics works. For example, you had your starting four, and then you would bring in a player. The fan base, which the Iowa fan base is extraordinarily loyal, and you have another sellout season ahead, they will stay with you. They know the girls and the personalities associated with it.

But now you have Instagram and TikTok. So we get a personal side of each one of your players, showing themselves in off moments and on the weekends and evenings. So you come to know them in a different way, which is nice, but it can also be monetized. The monetization creates all these new issues.

You are working through issues of fairness and balance and how to make that work for the program writ large, not just for individual players. And at the same time, one of the recognitions from the Caitlin effect of last year is that attention can be monetized. And when it gets monetized, you have a platform to do more. So it's really interesting dynamics competing with each other to try and curate it in its best form and fashion, if that's possible.

Jan Jensen:
Right. And I think that's the way that, well, I'm going to back up about four or five years. When the NIL started, it was perfect timing for a generational talent like Caitlin. Can we imagine Caitlin if there was no NIL. I mean, like we had a really great player that graduated in 2019 who was the national player of the year before Caitlin was. She was a center. Her name was Megan Gustafson.

There are seven of the most coveted national player of the year awards. You have ESPN, AP, the John Wooden Award. There are seven of them. Well, our center won six out of the seven. The only one she did not win went to Sabrina Ionescu. Sabrina is the All-Star guard from the New York Liberty. So that is how good the center was.

Centers, it's hard for them to get player of the year because they have to depend on others to get them the ball. And then when they get the ball, they have to do something astronomical. They have to hardly miss and they also have to rebound. They are so dependent. A guard can have the ball in her hand and create and dish and do all the things. I'm not saying one is easier, but a lot of player of the year awards, I have not done a scientific study, but I feel like guards have a little bit more ability in that sense.

But certainly A'ja Wilson is one of the greatest of all time. She is a post player. She plays for the Vegas Aces in the WNBA. But I digress.

Megan probably in this Name, Image, and Likeness era would have really cleaned up in a state like Iowa. We do not have any pro sports, and that is the beauty of our state. It is nicknamed the Hawkeye State. The marketing dollars for all the big firms, our grocery store chain here is Hy-Vee. They backed Caitlin right away. But they do not have to back the Washington baseball team or football team. So that is lovely.

So imagine Caitlin without the ability to get Gatorade and Nike.

When NIL hit, Lisa and I had the same reaction everyone else did. What. Are you kidding me. A college scholarship. These kids were flying around, running a fan, taking charter flights.

And because it was the collectives, not necessarily the NIL, the collectives were coming in. Collectives were these boosters that now could give to a fund, and now it was legal. A lot of them are not-for-profit. So then all the things that players used to do for free everywhere, like going to a food pantry or a hospital, now they could be paid through the collectives for the public appearance.

So at first it was like, what. So we decided we either get on board or we're out. Because you cannot go into a home singing the virtues of 2000 when everybody is focused on dollar signs. So we leaned in and embraced it. We tried to get all the opportunities for the NILs and tried to help kids like Caitlin within the legal limits. But everybody on our team had something. Casey's, the gas station. Local entities.

Now with revenue sharing, it is the same feeling. Whoa.

What I feel fortunate and blessed with is I have gotten to be on ground zero of three major things in my recent coaching career. Number one, ground zero of Caitlin Clark. Arguably whether you like her or not, she spun it all on its head. I'd like to think with Lisa's leadership and my own managing that. But the way she played, unabashedly. Look at me. She made so many conversations happen.

She played with that flair. We had plenty of conversations if she chirped to the ref too much. That is not passion. Don't let somebody use that as an excuse. That was bad sportsmanship. That was learning. That is like a parent. I had so many conversations with people like, I cannot believe she acts like that. I said, now if a guy acted like that, where is your passionate response. Was he disrespectful or did he have an edge. Was he a kickass player. Or are you thinking she is a negative, bad teammate.

So her national conversation started with, should a player be like, yeah, the Jordan shrug. How dare she do the Jordan shrug. She had a blast doing it.

Then she did what only another person on the planet does. There are only two people that do what they do. Steph Curry and Caitlin Clark. End of conversation. To me it started and ended there.

There has been much made when she came into the WNBA as well. She got too much credit because a lot of people had been great before. And they had. But no one was shooting from that distance consistently. No one had a fan base that reminded me sometimes of the Beatles on the road. And I do not mean that as hyperbole, but it was crazy on the road.

So all of these things. Watching that grow. I got to be part of that. Very few have gotten to coach a GOAT like Michael Jordan or whatever. Then ground zero of figuring out NIL for a GOAT. She had a great family. They hired a great agency at the right time. We had never had that before, learning how to manage agents and superstars. We got to be on ground zero of that. Hard, yes. Mistakes, yes. But it gave us all this experience to now recruit others.

Now ground zero of revenue sharing. No one knows the formula for that. Is it hard. Have I lost sleep. Yes. Am I wondering how I'm going to do that formula. Yes.

To be on ground zero is rare. When you think about it, I was not on ground zero when I went to Drake. A lot of players came before. When we came to Iowa, it was brand new, not ground zero. There was a plan. How can you make it better.

But I have been part of three brand new things. Because Caitlin was brand new in the way she was. Now I'm trying to come up with a successful formula as close to first as possible.

Chris Mailander:
Yeah. Managing through those change events. Each time they hit you and you are like, my, do we have to deal with this. What is the right answer. You have to sort through it, process it quickly. Also understand what the competitive environment is, because you are competing for athletes and competing for dollars. What does this take to make the program successful. And is there an opportunity created by it.

Fortunately with Caitlin, part of the brand there is that she does have an edge on the court. She can shoot the ball obviously. And then when she walks off she speaks with humility. She will talk to every little girl and every little boy that walks past. There is that balance, that chemistry, that alchemical quality of how she held herself and the team held themselves through these Final Four runs.

Jan Jensen:
Yeah, it really is. Caitlin is such a special talent and person. The thing that's so cool about her is she just hasn't changed. She will spar with you. She always gets it. She got it before everybody else got it. She just competed.

I always said she was wired to play at the Garden and then spar with Spike Lee as an opposing player and then afterwards go out for beers. That is just who she is. She is going to go after it, and win or lose, she is able to be like, man, you are better. Her is like crazy, but you are better. And you walk off and it was fun.

That is what people who love sport and competition love. That engagement. The more it can be entertaining, a kid like Caitlin makes it amazing.

And then it was over. And when it's over, she is just hanging out like everybody else. Everybody from ESPN to the local talk radio is trying to beat whatever topic to death. And she just moved on. It has never phased her. The fame, the fortune, exactly the same. Goofiest stuff still.

Chris Mailander:
So talk to me a little bit about, we will focus on her, but there are other interesting players on the roster and we can talk about them. But Caitlin's journey from that freshman who was always a competitor, she comes from that environment, obviously great family, but that edge while competing and friends afterwards. We are going to go hug it out afterwards and go to Casey's. Talk to me about that evolution of her growth and the maturing process.

Jan Jensen:
Yeah, that was the fun part. I feel so fortunate. Any college coach will tell you, some of the special ones, you find them early. That was a rare one. I heard about her in junior high, eighth grade, ninth grade. It has been about a five year process. Getting her was such a blessing. We should have gotten her a lot of different ways, so we had a lot in the tank with her.

We always had a great rapport, as did Lisa. But I did a lot of the lead recruiting. She always had a little attitude at times. Especially in high school, that could be hard to manage or support sometimes because you weren't used to it. But I had watched her so long that I could get the fact that she was in her fourth year of French and everybody else was still trying to master English. Maybe they were saying "oui." She was always playing at a level the others couldn't get to.

A, they weren't skilled enough because she was so great. B, they did not love it like she did. So she had all that going on, plus she needed to be refined. Her high school coach did a great job. Kristen Meyers is her name. Her family is awesome.

I told Lisa, if we get her, I feel like we have one job. Tame her but never break her. You do not want to break the spirit. Kind of like a horse. They will flare up sometimes. Lisa said too, you never want to say "whoa" to a racehorse. That was our mantra.

When she got here, it did not come without its moments. She will tell you that too. You had to have some knockdown drag outs. No, that is not acceptable. Sometimes as a coach, we had to look the other way where the rest of the players were like, what. But it is like parenting. Sometimes you do not treat this one the same way you treat that one.

Chris Mailander:
Talk about that. You need to be a bit of a shapeshifter as a coach. There are times when you are the mother, and there are times when you are the disciplinarian and not pleasant to be around. How do different people respond to that. And when you have a star like that and you are trying to surround with as much talent, and they see that, talk me through how you manage diverse personalities.

Jan Jensen:
The thing was you really had to get everybody else understanding how rare she was. That was the first thing. You had to work pretty hard on the chemistry and culture piece because that is what our staff believes in most.

When Caitlin came in, she had such a high expectation. If you study Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan, they were big on trust and basketball IQ. For Caitlin, if she did not think you were in the gym as much as you should be, then at the beginning she was not going to pass you the ball. Because my shot from 40 is going to be more consistent than yours from maybe 15.

So she is thinking from a very pragmatic, very successful, win the game mentality. It is nothing against you. I might like you. I just do not believe you worked that hard for the moment.

Shift it to the other person. They think they work hard. Maybe a hundred shots after practice is what they've always done. They get their feelings hurt. She looks them off. She does not pass. So they think she does not like them.

No. She likes you. She might believe in you. But at that moment she does not believe you put in the work as much as she has to take the shot.

So you had to uncover that. It is not personal for the Cobes, the Jordans, the Caitlins, the Diana Taurasis. It is never personal. We just want to win the game. So we are going to do what we think we have to do to win the game.

That mentality is really different for the majority of people who play the game. We built a lot into practices with conversations.

Number one, people do not like confrontation. They hear the word confrontation and automatically, people get like, they do not want confrontation. When really confrontation is good.

If you and I are working in your law office and we are already a team, and there is something I am sensing from you, I need to have a confrontation that says, Chris, I felt like you did not really respect me when we were discussing that case. It gives you an opportunity to say, no, I do not think your argument was good. Or yes, I do. Why do you think that. You get deeper and then you build trust.

So we build a lot into our teams about open confrontation that comes from wanting to get better and get the best out of each other, not confrontation of you are terrible.

We would show Caitlin some film individually of her mannerisms because she was acting in a way that did not support what she was thinking. Her actions could make you feel small. When she started to understand that we all have to give, we all have to change, then it began to happen.

She throws her arms up like catch the ball. And they are like, my gosh, I know what is coming. She threw it too hard. She is mad. She does not like me.

So I said, Caitlin, if you want to win, you are going to have to change this. You are going to have to get them to understand. Because it is not golf. You need the other four.

When she started to shift, and then the others began to understand, and then when they began to, because when she started to shoot from 40 and it was going in, and she began to throw unbelievable passes and no one was working harder than her, it started to get smoother. And that is where the story really began. And that is when our team started to sail.

Chris Mailander:
And it sounds like you do that through group communications and individual one-on-one. It sounds like you looked at tape. They do not look at the tape. I am telling you what is going on, but let's just look at it and see it. Maybe that helps communicate.

Jan Jensen:
It really does. You played football. You use the tape to get tendencies. To watch when they change an audible or look at it so much that when there is a little hitch, that means he is going to do this or that. Same thing in basketball. You watch it for strategies, but you can use tape to teach personality. How traits or actions show up.

Sometimes you have to see it because you do not recall negative body language or the shrug of the shoulders.

Coaches can use it too. You watch yourself on the sideline. You do not like a call and you are up and you are negative and you slam something. You do not remember doing that. You later think, I should not have done that. That did not help. But then you see it on tape and you look like a fool. And you go, well, no wonder they did not respond. I lost my mind.

Tape does not lie. If you are in a job where film can be used, it can be a great motivator and teacher.

Chris Mailander:
Talk a little bit about highlighting strengths. You said you do not want to say "whoa" to a thoroughbred. You want creativity, inspiration, drive, aggressiveness applied in the right ways. You do not want to contain that. But it has to fit into a strategy. Talk about your schemes relative to where they have the opportunity for innovation and creativity. The new look passes and deeper shots. She was always looking for the opportunity to step back two more feet. But also for other players. Talk about how much is scheme and how much is sensing. How much do you let them run with it and have flexibility and creativity. Will you evolve it as you get into the season and get through Charlotte at the opener, and then into Big Ten play.

Jan Jensen:
Yes, I think I will evolve. I think life and enjoying life and succeeding is about continual evolution. I do not think you can be immersed unless you are open to change every day as life comes at you.

So I think I will evolve. You have one way you are looking at it, then you get into it and it makes sense to go a different route. If you want to stick with the original route and you are not open to a smoother exit ramp, you miss opportunities. I think I am wired to evolve, and that will be good for us.

When you have a kid like Caitlin or a star player, what we have tried to do is highlight strengths and minimize weaknesses. That is going to be unbalanced sometimes because star players have a lot more strengths. The reason they are stars is the weaknesses are minimal.

With players that aren't stars, they have fewer strengths and more weaknesses. Our job is to get the strengths they have and highlight them when they need to be highlighted. Then that is when you can let this one sail, like a Caitlin or maybe this year Hannah Stuelke, our returner. They can go because someone has to have freedom and the ability to lead with instinct. When they are rolling, everybody takes on their confidence.

But good teams will slow you down. Slow you enough that you take a tougher shot. The thing is when you get good with the thoroughbred is when the thoroughbred realizes I do not need a tougher shot. Because the coaches have devised a plan that if I do this and I get that tough look, I am going to look over here and Kate Martin has her money shot.

So that strength that Kate Martin has, now Kate Martin gets that most every time. That is where if you do it right, you get everybody’s strengths and set them up in their strength spots. It is not a free for all. It is not take it when you got it. You train them. This is what we want you to do and when. We never want you to do this then.

She is going to get to do what she is going to do because that is how she is a thoroughbred. But you work on it so they see it objectively, not just subjectively. You have to give them something where they say, that makes sense. I am going to get my shot here. They do value me here. It is not just Caitlin running around, running around, drawing four people, and then throwing it to someone.

There has to be some system. But we were clear. She is one of the best that ever was. So we are going to ride her.

Chris Mailander:
You mentioned confidence. That is such an important thing. We saw with Hannah last season midseason at some point, a level of confidence visibly showed up. She made transition passes and caught them for easy twos, tough rebounds, pulled the ball back up for the and-one, scoring game. That growth was impressive. Throughout the season, I am sure it is different for players when they get that confidence. When they realize this is my moment, this is when I can do something innovative or play to my strength.

Jan Jensen:
Yes, that is pivotal when a person hits that moment. I have never coached men, but women overall struggle more with that confidence. I do not know, I would have to talk to Fran McCaffery and Kirk Ferentz. I think guys sometimes can be like, man I have dropped two passes, and move on. I am sure they have moments. But women, we have a tendency to look in the mirror and see wrinkles versus the beautiful new haircut.

Over the years coaching women, I have noticed that until they lean in and trust themselves and trust the work, confidence can be evasive.

Last year with Hannah, I think when we shifted her from power forward to center, she was not sure she was big or strong enough to play that the whole year. I talked with her. I said there are only a couple people it is going to be a problem with. When we played South Carolina at the end, they have a 6'7 center. No one was going to be able to stop her. But everybody else, we can use your speed, quickness, ability to rim run.

Once she embraced that and got a few games under her belt, she started to skyrocket. That is a million dollar question with athletes and in anything. That confidence piece, if you miss that, you are going to have a hard time getting to the promised land.

Chris Mailander:
Do you intentionally spend time on that conversation and creating conditions so they can find the place of confidence?

Jan Jensen:
Yes. I talked about film watching. Positionally, there are position coaches. And in your small group or one-on-one, you show what they need to do better. Box out, hit harder.

But I also believe in showing a lot more of what they do well. I believe in catching them doing things right. They need to see it. So when I show them a couple things where they missed a box out, I will, if I can, go three to one. Did you see that. That was unbelievable.

Especially with kids who struggle with confidence. Caitlin did not need that. She knew she was good. She knew she wanted to take that shot. She is not a rah-rah person. She is like, do not sugarcoat it, tell me what I need and I am out of here.

But some kids second guess. So I like to do with our team, and in fact as the new head coach, I have yet to show team film. The first time I will show them film will be highlights collectively, as a team together.

Chris Mailander:
Super interesting. How much time do you spend not scrimmaging or doing drills, but in conversation and film?

Jan Jensen:
I know we will see if we are successful if I can do it. Lisa Bluder always used to tell me, I would love to take kids to coffee, I just do not have time. And I get it. You are monitoring everyone else’s roles.

But I believe so much time in sport is spent on Xs and Os and preparation. Zone press breaker, full court. You can get absorbed in that and miss interaction with the team, which they need to know that they are ready, prepared, believed in.

I believe a young person will typically turn into what you believe they can become. They have to have some skill. You cannot take a 5'2 post player and say you are going to be an All-American. But if you start with a competitive baseline and fan the flame, lead them, and really believe in them, and it is real, not fake belief, you can get them through rocky times.

Then they start taking on the persona of how much I believe in them. Pretty soon they start to act differently. I do not think it can win you a national championship, but I think it can get you in a space where every practice is competitive and enjoyable, with a sense of confidence that grows.

So I believe one-on-one conversations are hugely important. That there is open communication and a dialogue that is not just about their basketball, but the young person off the floor. If they know a coach values them for who they are, the belief in them as a player takes root.

If you follow our program, I have gotten so much credit about coaching big players. That is who I used to be, my tradition. Honestly, I have hardly ever talked at clinics. I get asked to talk about big play. I feel like the players have done it. They did it because I believed in them and gave them opportunities. I believe in the one-on-one.

Chris Mailander:
So talk to me about recruiting. You have led recruiting. You are on the road nonstop watching players. We have talked about physical attributes and ability to play at a certain level. But also their ability to fit chemistry, fold into a culture, develop confidence. People are wired differently. Some find their confident moment earlier. Caitlin was off the charts in game knowledge. You are watching kids from 13 or 14 through high school.

Do you look into wiring. Are they wired in a way that will work here. Are they able to fold in and ratchet up the scale.

Jan Jensen:
Yes, you have different things that get your attention. They get your attention because they are skilled enough. You watch them in summer leagues or in high school. Caitlin was easy. The harder ones are like, are they power forwards. Are they big enough as a center. Are they quick enough as a guard. Some things are tangible, a lot intangible.

If a kid has a motor, I am really big on the go. If they have a go button that I do not need to start every day, then I feel like I have a good shot. Even if they have a go button, they might still be like, I do not know if I am going in the right direction. But they go.

If a kid is harder to get started and underconfident, that is really hard to get through. Even if they are 6'6. That is where a coach makes decisions. You have a really fast point guard but they make errors under pressure. You decide if they can handle being coached hard. If they can be open enough to let you believe them up.

So I have a different system when talking to kids. But most of the time if they fit your culture. I am big on they have to want to come and be part of it. Even Caitlin. I never recruited Caitlin by saying you will be the one. It is all about you. I never promised her a starting role. I never talked about it. Our big thing is this is a special place.

So my big thing is they have to have a motor and they have to want to be part of it, understanding the whole is greater than the one.

Chris Mailander:
The geography of recruiting has broadened. You are now able to compete nationally for the highest ranked athletes. Each program you compete with has a different brand and feel. Is that a differentiator. Do certain players want Iowa because of that difference.

Jan Jensen:
Yes. The imprint is much larger. Two things helped us. Number one, the Big Ten expanded at the same time. Caitlin came on the scene when we had just gone to the Elite Eight. We had gone to the Elite Eight the year before she was a freshman. She had seen our center, Megan Gustafson, get player of the year. She knew that could happen.

When Caitlin came on, the spotlight grew. Now we will play at USC, UCLA, Oregon, Washington. We already have Maryland and Penn State. The Eastern Seaboard understood the Big Ten. But the West, that was new. When we had success, that helped people recognize us.

Then when they are being recruited, our brand is different from UCLA's, Washington's, Maryland's. You sell what you want to attract. I am selling because this is not just a job. It is not another rung on the ladder. You live with these young women. Blood, sweat, tears. You are inviting them into your family.

So you recruit like you are adopting someone who will come be part of you. Everything about how you do that will resonate with some families or not.

For us, it is togetherness. Culture. Everyone matters. With recruiting, some number one recruits have it all about them. We are not going to be like that.

I have had people say, I do not hear from you as much. And it is usually the handler, not the kid. The handler is like, you do not text every day, you do not send a digital short every day. I say, no I do not. What she is getting from me is quality. If she wants it every day, I am not for her. Because when she gets here, it will not be every day.

Chris Mailander:
Has that process changed with revenue share, NIL, social media amplification, sponsorships, handlers?

Jan Jensen:
Yes. The handlers can be their club coaches, trainers, and now agents. That is what is weird. I just got a call from an agent. Now with NIL they can have an athletic agent and an NIL agent, representing them in commercials.

That adds another business element for a high school kid. It is confusing.

Chris Mailander:
The level of complexity is significant. Collegiate athletes start to develop their identity so they can monetize it. They start amateurish, then improve as they work with tools and develop confidence in being a personality. That is a new edge in collegiate athletics. Women have the opportunity to monetize in a significant way.

Jan Jensen:
It has. Women’s sports in general, but women's basketball is in the public eye. We have had conversations. With NIL deals, with commercials, you have situations.

In college basketball you must have one off day a week. Student-athlete welfare. We always gave them an off day. But early on in NIL, on an off day, we saw on social media that a two hour engagement went four hours. The line was out the door. And this was an off day.

When I go to a meet and greet, it is intense. You are signing autographs, engaging. It is not an off day.

So we had to remind them, this is great, but basketball is why you are here. You must understand if you load your NIL deals, especially in season, you will be tired, you will not perform, then you have stress of not winning, and the business side.

We had good conversations teaching them how to manage that. They would think, great, I will make this many bucks. I can do this for a couple hours. They do not realize how popular they are. Two hours turns into five.

There have been lessons about that.

Chris Mailander:
At the end of their career they are seasoned on how to hold themselves in that environment. That is the collegiate athlete experience. Still amateur athletics and learning.

Jan Jensen:
That is the coolest part. I love that they can be their own entrepreneurs. Our athletic department does a great job helping with their brand, with legal matters, looking over contracts. Some have their own agents. It is amazing what they can do here. When they leave they have an amazing portfolio.

If they do not go on to a true professional career, they are one up on interviewing, branding on social media, knowing what to accept, how to influence.

You mentioned earlier the platform gets bigger if you can be successful. They are learning a lot.

Chris Mailander:
Elizabeth, my wife, was on the board at Davidson. When Steph had the great run, the institution leaned into it. There are parallels between Steph and Caitlin. Not just their ability to shoot the long ball, but the underdog story. Steph being undersized. Caitlin being in Iowa, staying in Iowa, not on the coasts.

Kudos to the institution and the staff. The visibility of the University of Iowa, of Iowa City, of the state of Iowa creates pride. I am interested in your thoughts. When you go through those periods, winning creates attention, but you come to represent something larger in the minds of people. It is not just about playing well. It is how you hold yourself. It is the press conferences. Attention.

Jan Jensen:
You know, that is what was cool about the last couple years. Lisa Bluder and I were talking after we got beat in the championship game by LSU. We were disappointed that night. But when you get to that level, if you stay really down, it is a disservice to the climb.

There was so much good that happened. We were disappointed but reflecting in the middle of the night in Dallas, and then flew home. There was a lot of controversy around that game. It took turns.

Caitlin and Lisa, especially at the end of that press conference, and then our whole team, Lisa and I were talking. She said she was thinking a lot about this. Lisa and I have strong faith. She said, I think part of this year's mission was not only to bring a lot of joy to people watching us, but to show people how to be number two. And I thought that was beautiful. No one wants to be number two. Everyone wants to be number one.

But so few people ever get to be even number three in their lives.

That is where sports can be warped. When it ends, there is disappointment. But what you said about this team, all the conversations about how to interact, appreciation of the fan base, joy, the platform. That has been my driving force my whole career.

Way back when we got to know each other, we had an unbelievable community. They backed us in whatever we did. There was so much joy in watching and playing. I never once thought about leading the nation in scoring. I never thought about my point production. I was having so much fun and wanted to win.

So I think this team understood its mission. The joy, the lightness, the passion. Everyone who watched identified with someone. Maybe a few identified with Caitlin. Many loved Kate Martin, blue collar. People could see themselves in her.

When teams are done well, they are not untouchable. Pro teams sometimes feel like a business. But when a college or high school team is done well, everybody is part of it. They relate to it. They appreciate the way the team competes.

That is what I love about sport. How I played it. How I believe in coaching it. And that is how I will coach as a head coach. I want to use this platform for so much good, because that is the link we have.

If there is any standard I do not want lessened, it has nothing to do with wins or losses. It is the way in which the program competes. That is what made those teams special.

Chris Mailander:
It is important. Interesting observation about players and fans identifying with somebody. Whether Caitlin, or Kate Martin, or Gabby Marshall, or Hannah, or Sid. Each has a different flavor, chemistry, feel, role, area of flair.

If you are riding in a tractor, knifing in nitrogen or disking fields, and listening to the game, or a third grade teacher in a small school like where we are from, you are thinking about how you relate to that team.

Quite frankly, we have been a bit of a beneficiary based on the way this year broke. But I find with all those teams you become a fan of, and at the end of the season it is over. Part of the team will leave. They will go on. We have to rebuild. There is consternation and nervousness.

We got it extended a little with Caitlin's journey at Indiana, and Kate’s surprise and beautiful season at Vegas extended the energy.

We have hosted three foreign exchange students from Barcelona. I am pushing Iowa Hawkeyes on them all the time because she played for the Spanish team.

For listeners, both Jan and I came from a place in southwest Iowa called the Rolling Hills Conference.

Jan Jensen:
That is awesome.

Chris Mailander:
A series of small farm schools. Nine hundred people in the collective towns. We competed against each other.

Sports are an important part of community identity. The orange of Elk Horn-Kimballton. The purple of Anita, consolidated with Cumberland-Massena.

The pride. When I played football, it was almost a bowl-like stadium. The entire place was covered with people and cars around it. Same with your basketball games. Those gyms were packed. No place to move out from the baseline. Crowds in the corners. It is part of identity.

You have tapped into it. We are excited about the next era with you and the team, where it can go, how players evolve and grow.

Jan Jensen:
That is the fun part. What I have been talking about a lot as I have taken the job is that fans are eager to know the next chapter. I have been appreciative that most folks are excited about the next era and patient until we get another identity formed.

I tell them, leave last year's team where it was. It was special and amazing, and Caitlin was rare. Be grateful we had that orbit. Now we turn the chapter.

As coaches we understand that better. We have to. You recruit classes to replace classes. You cannot do what we do without the understanding there will be a tomorrow. And tomorrow will not be the same as yesterday. However great it was or however much you missed the mark.

We are focused on the next one. I told our team what we have been focusing on is the windshield. We are going to take down the rearview mirror. We will use the side mirrors on occasion, but we are going forward. Whatever this year is going to be, this is our group. The returners can be proud of what we had, but this is our time. Our theme is we got next.

Chris Mailander:
Do you have an identity. Is it formed yet or will it emerge as you get into the games.

Jan Jensen:
I think it will emerge. We can assume it is going to be Hannah Stuelke and Sid's team. They are two returners. But something will emerge that will help us be successful. That remains to be seen.

The challenge is we have not had Hannah and Sid together. Sid had a little knee injury. Hannah had a knee procedure and just got released. Then she tweaked an ankle. Then had a little Achilles. So the people who will normally be anchors, they have not been practicing. We have been young in practice.

The positive is the younger players have had an amazing audition. They get minutes every day in front of our staff. They are the ones going against our men's squad. They get opportunities to improve and take reps.

The tough part is chemistry that usually starts in summer. Hannah was not able. Sid was, then had the knee thing. She will be ready by Thanksgiving. Maybe earlier.

That will be interesting. Another challenge our staff has not had in a while. Even when I was in the…

Chris Mailander:
Do you sit down with Hannah and Sid about leadership, identity, expectations.

Jan Jensen:
Yes. As soon as I got the job I spent a lot of time with those two and anyone else who had a voice. Wanted to make sure they knew I had their back. Whatever they needed in the summer to get the team together. As a coach you cannot be with them all the time. You get two days a week. I made sure they were empowered.

They felt good about what their role was going to be and what it could be. You give them the keys to that leadership car because the leaders graduated. The points were gone. The stars were gone. The leadership was gone.

You do not want anyone wondering, who organizes things, does coach believe in me. I wanted to make sure, here are the keys, you got it. I am in your corner. I am here when there is an issue. But I trust you will iron out what you need. It is not an easy task. There are six new people. We have not had six new for a decade. Usually three or four.

Chris Mailander:
Talk about your management structure and coaching staff. Many of whom you have been with for a long time. You brought in two new members. Does it change.

Jan Jensen:
Yes. One coach, she played for us. Then worked for United Way. Then we hired her as Director of Operations. Organizing flights, meals, practice times. A lot of details. She worked her way up. She has been with us 16 years. That has been a calming presence.

Her name is Abby Stamp. She does a phenomenal job.

Then Raina Harmon. She is now starting year eight. I am glad we had that. She chose to stay. They have been calming presences. Our players know them. Abby runs point guards. Raina runs wings. That all stayed. It was a nice transition.

I did posts. But in summer I could not because I needed to pay attention to everything. So we hired a coach, her name is Randy Henderson. She was at Wash U, Division Two. And a young guy from North Carolina.

They came at different points. It took time to get them into the fold. Three of us were speaking a language from 8 to 16 years ago. In coaching, what some call a light screen, others call a down screen. Some say show on a screen, others hedge. So you have to get your dialect together.

Now we have started to hit a stride with communication. Another challenge is that up until this year only four coaches could go recruit. Now six. Only four could have a voice on the court. Now six can.

You have to be careful when coaching 15 players that not too many voices come at them. But I want everyone on staff to have a voice. I want them to feel valued. But how to manage that and encourage but pull back. Maybe not too much talking at that point.

It has been interesting growth for me. Adding two more coaches. Getting everyone adjusting. Getting the team to understand who to listen to on defense, offense, all the things.

We are hitting our stride with that.

Chris Mailander:
Do you spend time crafting roles and voices.

Jan Jensen:
Yes. I had help before Lisa and Jenny retired. We created a skeletal plan. Then they went on vacations. I love football. If you remember, I always loved football. So I tried to see if we could do a defensive coordinator and offensive coordinator. Basketball does not always run that way. But I divided the six so someone is on that side of the ball and others on the other side.

There is crossover. There are only 15 kids. Not like managing O-line and defense.

In practice every day we simulate. I put us in timeout drills. Usually in practice you talk for three minutes because it is not a real game. But I practice that in five minute bursts. When I call timeout, managers set it at one minute and 30 seconds. It is 30 seconds. To train not being relaxed and having six voices. Six people cannot talk in that time.

We are drilling that down.

Chris Mailander:
I think offensive and defensive coordinator makes sense. Transition basketball is such an important part of Iowa women's basketball. You have to inflect from defense to offense quickly, especially with a rim runner like Hannah.

Jan Jensen:
Yes. We have different people identified watching certain areas. Identifying that. I meet with them to make sure what they are seeing is what I am seeing. And what I miss, they poured over.

We have roles better identified now. What I thought on paper, when I got into it, I was like, no, I have to shift that. That is too much for that person. Or it does not make sense. I need that role to go here.

That is the fun part. Keep tweaking until you hit it just right.

Chris Mailander:
Let me shift. Talk about your growing up experience and how it shaped you.

Jan Jensen:
We are similar. You have shared your story with folks who have seen nothing but high rises. They cannot imagine expansive openness. But that community feel. The statement it takes a village to raise a child. We lived that. The community raised us all.

We had great parents. Your parents are tremendous. They set our course. But everybody in the town looked after each other.

As many points as I scored, I can honestly say I do not think any of the people I played with or their parents look back with anything but joy.

The smallness of it, the entertainment value of sport, that is what people did. Tuesday and Friday night activity. It was a group effort. The camaraderie, the community spirit, what it meant not just in sport but in sickness. How many farmers just go combine the other guy’s land because he is having a tough time.

I well up when I see a farmer get sick and five combines show up and knock it out in a day.

We grew up with that. No one sat you down and said when someone has a tough time you do this. You just saw it. You heard around the kitchen table. I feel bad for Robert. I do not think it looks good for his wife Betty. Then you just hear your mom say I am going to bake a casserole. Your dad says I will call Fred and we will go help.

It was not a big thing. You watched it. You watched dads work their asses off. You see teachers stay extra. It is just the way it was.

It was instilled in us. I think you were the same. Similar messages without being a message.

Chris Mailander:
Exactly. Mom told me a beanfield caught fire last week. She saw six tractors and discs running over to disc a perimeter to prevent the fire. Everybody stops what they are doing and heads over. It is what you do. Not special. You help when needed. The rest of the time you work hard and compete.

Jan Jensen:
There is joy in that community. And sorrow shared. Sharing both is beautiful.

Chris Mailander:
Your high school program, Elk Horn-Kimballton, had inspired coaching and talent. For small town, and we have not talked about this, it was six-on-six girls basketball. A different brand. It allowed concentrations of capabilities in a three-on-three type game. Offensive stars.

The number of players who came out of girls six-on-six in Iowa who were talented at a higher level is amazing. There is pride in that. You tapped into it this past year. Those guys running over with discs had the radio on. Listening. Living vicariously.

Jan Jensen:
It really is. Everybody likes a winner. You have to win. But the way you win, that is the butterfly effect. The way you win, when people feel hey I like that kid, that joy and interaction.

You felt like you were with them on the radio or TV. You set new habits for farmers. I was going home a couple years ago. My dad before he passed away, I was making the trek to see him. I stopped in Williamsburg to get gas. I walked into the Come and Go. In Iowa these are six tables. Makeshift coffee shop.

I walk in and they say hey Jen, is that you. Coach Jensen. Six farmers recounting the game. Caitlin hit a game winner. It was a moment. That was two years ago. The passion. The ripples. They were telling me so-and-so called them. They had watched it. That six-on-six ride from way back brought it out again.

Chris Mailander:
It is interesting. A state of conservative values. But not what people think. A farmer's daughter will be protected but pushed. We will be aggressive. We will fight. High standards. That is the piece. The standard you learn as part of your conduct. The values. That standard gets brought out in these moments.

Talk to me. I track Iowa Hawkeyes and women's basketball. You are married and have two kids, two teenagers. How do you make it all happen.

Jan Jensen:
I would have always been busy. The busy factor now with obligations and more preparation. The preparation is like teaching. The lesson plan every day. The practice plan. A lot more time. I pour over it meticulously. I want it right.

I am glad I have years in the tank. They understand the busy schedule. Before, flying around recruiting. Now they know it is amped up. The responsibility is greater.

I will say you cannot always have it all. Something has to give. Sometimes family time together, dinners, even though sometimes my son plays basketball, open gym, our daughter dances, it is helter-skelter. They have been understanding that maybe I have missed a little.

Coaches' families live it with you. They are supportive. Julie, my spouse, I always say there is Jesus and there is Julie. It is that much difference. In your peak times of busyness, the other person carries it.

My kids are huge Hawks. They get backstage passes to Kinnick and Carver. There are tradeoffs. But the opportunities they have, they live it with me. They are proud. When Lisa retired, there was sadness. She is their honorary aunt. But they are also proud and want me to carry on.

Jack is our son, Jamie is our daughter. They are with me. They are hanging in there. The late night shift in the office.

You will appreciate this. We had Tuesday off of practice. We made our kids commit to going with us on our tradition to the pumpkin patch. Can you commit to this. Now we are 40. Because we love this. They are big now. They did. Teenagers. We had fun. Then dinner.

As always, trying to get recruits to call at the perfect time. We are pulling into our favorite dinner spot. The phone rings. I look at it. The two kids in back. I say I have to take this. Julie says no, this is our family dinner. Both kids look at the name. They know who it is. They say oh yeah, she has to take that call.

That commitment could mean so much. Julie says, why. Why are you going to tell her not to take this call. Then I go take it. It goes well. I walk in. Julie says I cannot win. The kids want you to be at your job and recruit. So I am not going to fight it.

Chris Mailander:
Fantastic. That is wonderful. You have been generous with your time. One last question. I would do the math. I am 56. That makes you about 55. As long as you are in this position, what is the trophy. What is the legacy.

A lot of the work I do is around decision making. Play clock, game clock, long arcs, trophies. Often we look out five years. What is the trophy. What has to be true by when for you to accomplish it. You talked about changes in collegiate basketball. What do you need to do to achieve that trophy.

Jan Jensen:
Professionally, the new age of the new rules, my trophy will be if I can operate in the same manner five years from now as we are now. We have operated with an everyone matters philosophy.

It is hard when you have a Caitlin Clark and the kid practicing against her every day never gets in, not recognized. You have to work. Caitlin does not need me to put my arm around her. But the kid guarding her every day needs me. That is the one to chat with. Because the world is not telling her anything. We are all saying Caitlin. I cannot get enough of Caitlin. I cannot either.

But at the end of the day, every kid's status is exactly the same. If we do not remind them, they get lost. I want that same feel now being forced into a pro model with a salary cap. Some really good kids I believe will want to play for me but will not be allowed because the purse is bigger elsewhere.

I still want to win with the kid who wants to come, who is okay deferring a few dollar signs because they want this good teammate and that good teammate and this coach. That is going to be hard because all of us, when we take a job, we want the job that pays the most. And we want to like it. So I want them to come, like it, but I may not pay the most.

That is my trophy. College should be collegiate. We are forcing families to make hard decisions that may not be best for an eighteen-year-old chasing money.

My goal, my trophy, I would love it to be the Big Ten trophy with all these people who do that. But if I can put together a competitive team that loves each other, really great kids, and they are not all going to make the same, if you cannot do it, I do not think you can survive. I am not saying equal, but making it feel like that. And we are always in the conversation.

That is my trophy. I want that. Now yes, I would love a Big Ten championship or national championship. You cannot get hired not wanting that. But the first thing I want is the things that have always driven me about what a team means. It is the reason I did not jump to the WNBA. I did not want a salary cap, a GM, all the just winning. People want to win, but when talking to pros, there is a reason in football they look back on character checks. Some slide things. They want to win.

In college you do not have to do that. You do not have to do bad examples. I want to win and I want to win where everybody is part of it.

So that is my trophy. The beautiful thing is no matter what happens, nothing can take away what was. I was part of something incredible. It was amazing. That ride I will never forget.

Will I be less than if I never recruit someone close to Caitlin. Will I be less than if we do not get to the third national championship game, even if we do not make it. I do not think it is wise to use that measurement. That is all about the end. I have always been about the journey. If you take care of the journey, you put yourself in position for that.

That is where I want to put myself. But with healthy perspective. This is a different job. I am thankful for what I got to do. Now moving forward, I may not be first to arrive at being successful with this new model, but I am sure not going to be last.

Chris Mailander:
It is challenging, but also invigorating to figure the game out, the new dynamic. To be successful when everyone is trying to learn. You said early, I am selling a product and I want to attract what I am selling. There is money on the table, but also culture, community, family, dynamic. Certain people will not want that. Their trophy will have a dollar sign.

Jan Jensen:
Yes. That is where you have to find the niche. Attract the kid or that level. That is what is unknown.

If you look at a true pro model, if the Las Vegas Raiders operated like that, the margin is thin. They are trying to win. They cannot take good, nice guys. They need certain talent.

Maybe a little pie in the sky. Until I feel pie in my face, I will try to go for it.

Chris Mailander:
I understand. A thousand thanks. The original premise of this was to have conversations at that round kitchen table, to dig into issues a little deeper and understand how you are thinking. This is beautiful. Thanks.

Jan Jensen:
Well thank you. I appreciate it.